Talk:Chara/@comment-4015220-20180519220127/@comment-35700847-20180602012311
@TheHumanAmbassador "Allow me to elaborate. At first, the power would be equal. But Chara wanted Asriel to asborb six MORE human SOULs-Thus having the power of seven human SOULs, making him, well, the god of hyperdeath. Asriel can absorb as many human SOULs as he pleases, and continually gain more and more strength. But, if Chara's the vessel.. You're stuck with one human SOUL, and just up to the few boss monsters. (Just realized humans can't absorb any other kind fo monster SOUL, as they just vanish.) That means that you don't even have the power of two humans, and you won't. Ever. Because you can only absorb those weak monster SOULs. Don't you think a megalomaniac would want the more powerful option? Also, what do you mean "have them"? They WOULD have to absorb the SOULs to break the barrier! Unless they plan on entrusting those six humans to help them out after they were just KILLED-Even though Chara hates humanity.. Yeah, that's not going to work.." Why would Chara want that though? They had enough power when merged with Asriel's soul. Unless you mean Chara wanted to keep getting stronger and stronger afterwards, but there would be no point to doing that. The point of the plan was for Chara to get revenge on the human's on the surface, I doubt getting souls for more power was even a part of the plan. Chasriel had more than enough power to destroy everyone in the village. I think a megalomaniac would want more power, but Chara Isn't a megalomaniac, they're a revenge thirsty nutjob. That is true. "It's the village they knew best, and probably one of the closest to the mountain. If they can navigate it better, they'll do better against those humans during those early days when they're NOT basically a total being of hyperdeath." We should settle on putting this point down for now. We don't actually know if the village was close. We don't know if they even wanted or assumed they needed a terrain advantage against people in the village either. I doubt they did, since they just walked into the village casually, got everyone's attention, and planned on killing them all. Chara didn't even bother to run around and attack from a distance or something like that. But even then this is more of a "I think/Maybe" point. "Not if Asriel has anything to say about that!" They didn't know Asriel had any control at all in that form. I doubt they did since they were the one that did practically everything, all Asriel did was hold them back. "Yeah, they probably weren't AS bad as we see them in-game.." In genocide they're evil to the core. Pacifist however, is another story. "If anything, they would assume Asriel has full control, since, well, it's his body. Why would they think Chara had FULL control? Also, there is evidence that Chara knew about this. "Six, right? We just have to get six.. And we'll do it together, right? Do it together.. Yeah, Chara knew about this." Maybe at first, but then when they picked up the body and literally did everything else with them in control. They would think that because Chara WAS in full control until Asriel pulled the surprise hold back. That quote can be taken another way, it doesn't change the fact that their souls were together and that meant they would still be doing it together even if Asriel didn't plan on doing anything by actually moving the body. "Neutral bad? Yeah, that's pretty close." What else could they be? We covered that they aren't good when they first fell and they aren't pure evil either. "The latter." But if they assumed they had control they wouldn't need to. "...And then turns evil again after a reset even though they can remember True Resets, as evidenced by the Soulless Pacifist Ending? ..Yeah, that's just too fishy. Also, refer above:Chara DID know about split control." What do you mean? They remember true resets after genocide because they have Frisk's soul. Also by soulles pacifist they are definitely evil, remember, genocide Chara supported killing everyone. I added a point to the split control thing. "Yeah, you were assuming the argument was that they were never going to.. Not my argument. Though, I suppose maybe Halibee's was.." Actually I was providing a case for Chara in general. I wasn't actually going and targetting points when I made that point, I just put in my two cents and waited for a response. I did tag you both as well. "Remember.. Look above." I responded back. "Yeah, it was probably so Asriel would be willing to let Chara attack. Which, of course, completely failed." I doubt that was the case because Chara didn't ask for an "okay" in the first place. They just attacked. It did completely fail either way. "And that cornering is what Chara did when he used their dead body to rally up all the humans in the village. Yet, even then, Asriel still refused. Wow, Asriel. You'd rather die than kill those humans, which, for all you knew, could have saved the monsters.. Hmm.. Let's see.. *an X appears over Asriel..* TRAITOR." Chara used their dead body to rally up the village and then they automatically attacked. It's honestly just as possible that they were doing what they did to get the attention of the whole village so they could take them out in one sweep. But back to the original point, if Chara was trying to corner Asriel there would be no reason to attack, Asriel would be the one attacking. Asriel didn't even mention that Chara was backed into a corner he just mentioned that Chara wanted to use their full power. "..How do we know they DIDN'T want power? This just seems like evidence that they did. Also, it would have been power and eradicating the enemy, so that they may eventually destroy this pointless world, and move onto the next. (If neither humans and monsters are worth existing, then that makes the world itself pointless, seeing how those are the only two races.)" In life and death? They obviously wanted revenge, power was just a way for them to get that revenge. They weren't killing just so they could be powerful and feel powerful they were killing so they could get stronger and defeat the enemy. It wasn't an obsession with power, just an obsession with revenge. "Yeah, that's about right. It also explains why them killing Flowey was so different than the other ones. (Sans and Asgore) Another possibility is that they started killing everyone because now they know Asriel is useless, and there's no use in keeping his trust.. In which case this would be the real Chara unfolding." Yeah, so revenge. Not an actual power obsession where they just wanted power because they had the option to gain it. Also you're saying that since they didn't need Asriel's trust they would be able to reveal their true nature? Well I don't think that's the case. If that were the case then you would be saying they were evil in life too. But the whole idea of revenge against monster's came up because Asriel betrayed them. "Okay, good-You're NOT like the Chara defenders." Nope I'm not, I agree that genocide was cooperation not corruption. "The latter should actually convince Chara NOT to do it, because that is a HUMAN, and they HATE humanity! This should just be further proof of how evil humans are." That wouldn't matter because they want revenge remember? Human or not, Frisk would just be a means to an end. "Who says they weren't power-hungry? That probably wasn't their main goal, but getting power from all those humans was a sweet bonus. Why pass that up? Also, as I said, they could have wanted power to destroy everything, because of, well, neither humans and monsters being worthy to exist? (From Chara's perspective.)" Because of exactly what you said. It wasn't their main goal, the point of the plan was to get revenge, not get as strong as possible for fun. They could pass it up because if they have enough power already, it's not even needed. It's most likely a mix of that because they hate both of them. "..You're Chara, aren't you?"-Flowey, Genocide Route, Ruins End ...Yeah, how about no." That's on a completely different route. "And he didn't even know Chara was alive, period. When he DID find out the difference between Chara and Frisk, he still wouldn't be able to tell who did what. When Chara takes control of Frisk's body, nobody but us (since we ARE Frisk) even knows that it's Chara and not us." Yeah, so he could tell the difference when Frisk first showed up and even as Flowey. You could say that but he definitely did know the difference between the two from the start and only went "YOU'RE CHARA!" when he became Asriel in pacifist. Then he could feel Chara there afterwards but he still knew that they were two different people. "Strange.. Why does he suddenly think Frisk is Chara as Asriel, when as Flowey, he can somehow tell the difference? I'd say that as Asriel, that's when he was able to truly sense Chara (the narrator), and as he couldn't see Chara as separate from Frisk, he deduced it MUST be Frisk. After he found otherwise, he was eventually able to reach the conclusion that Chara was some kind of spirit with Frisk-That happened by the time the speech takes place. Perhaps he heard Chara as the narrator-The narrator CAN be heard, as evidenced by Tsunderplane and Napstablook, and that helped him figure it out." Probably exactly what you said, he could truly feel them there when he became Asriel. Hearing the narrator only really applies to certain characters. Asriel could have heard them, but you'd think he would bring it up. "How would we hear the speech if they're not with Frisk? Flowey was with Frisk too, you know." Frisk has a mental-link with Chara either way. How do we know Flowey was with Frisk? "Without a barrier, they wouldn't be stuck underground-And Flowey CHOSE to stay underground. Chara still wouldn't like Asriel, even AFTER all of this, because Asriel still took his original stance-NOT killing the humans. They would choose Frisk over Asriel. Plus, they're still bound to Frisk like they were for the entire duration of the game! Why would the barrier breaking change that? (Fun fact, it doesn't-Chara still narrates to you in the Epilouge-There's even new lines, for example, the one about the mouse fibally hacking the safe in Hotland..)" I'm pretty sure Flowey could have left at any point in time though, he didn't have a monster or human soul. The only reason he stayed underground specifically was because he wanted to mess around with his reset powers. Also what says Chara still wouldn't like Asriel? They never do anything in pacifist that would make us suggest they still don't. No idea, but a lot of things go unexplained in Undertale(Chara being attached to Frisk in the first place.). Also the narration in the epilogue happens before they leave anyway, right? "Evidence?" Fighting against Flowey and attempting to free the monsters is fighting against the reset ability in the first place right? Well Chara helps you by narrating for you. "Yeah, I believe Charrator:I think I've actually proven it. (click the link for the proof) Even under the strange theory that Frisk is NOT the player, it still holds. (I plan on debunking this strange third entity theory sometime-But for the sake of this proof, I had to take every possibility into account.)" Nice, I also don't believe in the existence of a separate entity "player" as an actual character in Undertale. People try to use Chara talking to Frisk as evidence for it, but nothing suggests Chara's speech switched from Frisk to the player. Since Frisk is still alive and everything, and a player has never been referenced beforehand, why would it? "If Frisk didn't make them evil on Genocide, then that makes them evil in Pacifist, as they would have been evil no matter what Frisk did. Here's some evidence that they wanted Frisk to kill everything from the very start. (Of their rebirth, that is.) Now, normally, narration says that an apenemy, say, hopped close.. But, the very first time.. It said "Froggit attacks you!" Chara purposefully gave misleading narration, to make Frisk feel threatened, and try to attack. That DOES go away after the first ecounter, though.. Then there's the whole Flowey speech. If Chara wanted to wipe away the happy ending, then they didn't want it. They're evil here. And that's at the very end of Pacifist. "I get your point now on the first part, Chara did not have the ability to reset at that point, Frisk still did. But I don't think we can infer Chara did want a reset, Flowey said they were fighting to stop "that power". He thought Chara had it and went to beg them to not reset(Not because Chara wanted a reset, we don't see a response from Chara so we can't assume what they wanted.) but most likely because he did not trust Chara anymore, he realized that they were fighting against that power but since in life they were extremely manipulating he clearly still views them as being unpredictable. In his mind, while there is a chance they did good they could still just be a manipulative jerk. But in the end Chara gives no response." Alright, let's go through the speech again, while I comment on it. Then, I'll point out the evidence that shows that Chara did indeed likely want to reset. "Well. There is one thing. One last threat. One being with the power to erase EVERYTHING… Everything everyone’s worked so hard for. You know who I’m talking about, don’t you? That’s right. I’m talking about YOU. YOU still have the power to reset everything. Toriel, Sans, Asgore, Alphys, Papyrus, Undyne… If you so choose… Everyone will be ripped from this timeline… …and sent back before all of this ever happened. Nobody will remember anything. You’ll be able to do whatever you want." Yep, Chara's a threat alright. "That power. I know that power. That’s the power you were fighting to stop, wasn’t it? The power that I wanted to use." Alright, actually, yes, it was while Frisk was alive, now that we take this io consideration. Chara wanted to stop it, while Asriel wanted to use it. Chara didn't want ASRIEL to reset, over and over. But.. Why? Could it be because Asriel DIDN'T want to destroy everything? Could it be because Chara wanted to reach the end, and have Frisk use it, so that Asriel may not remember what happened? So that killing everything wouldn't be so suspicious to Flowriel? Also, this very well could have been FRISK fighting to stop it. Because, well, we ARE fighting to stop it, and actions of Frisk are indistinguaihable from actions of Chara. That's kind of why Flowey assumed Chara could perform the True Reset in the first place...? "But now, the idea of resetting everything… I… I don’t think I could do it all again. Not after that. So, please. Just let them go. Let Frisk be happy. Let Frisk live their life." Yeah, this is confirmation this isn't to Frisk. "But. If I can’t change your mind." Change your mind. This implies that by default, Chara wanted to reset. Asriel wanted to CHANGE that, so that Chara doesn't reset. "If you DO end up erasing everything… You have to erase my memories, too. I’m sorry. You’ve probably heard this a hundred times already, haven’t you…?" Flowey assumes Chara HAS already reset, and hundreds of times, even! This is further evidence that resetting was their intention. "Well, that’s all. See you later… Chara." Flowey assumes Chara HAS already reset, and hundreds of times, even! This is further evidence that resetting was their intention. Hold on a second, it seems more likely that Chara misunderstood the situation from what you're saying. The fact of the matter is that the first time you encounter Froggit he does send ATTACKS at you and they can kill you if you aren't careful enough. Also, it even changes after you fight him once, which proves that Chara most likely thought Froggit was actually trying to attack Frisk, then proceeded to change their thoughts once they realized the Froggit could understand Frisk and wasn't trying to kill them(since monster's express themselves with attacks or something like that). Plus let's be fair here, why would Chara attempt to trick Frisk once in the whole entire route and then never try to trick them ever again if they really were trying to back Frisk into a corner? "Yep, Chara's a threat alright." How are they a threat? They can't reset or anything and they don't even attempt to persuade Frisk into resetting at any point in time. "Alright, actually, yes, it was while Frisk was alive, now that we take this io consideration. Chara wanted to stop it, while Asriel wanted to use it. Chara didn't want ASRIEL to reset, over and over. But.. Why? Could it be because Asriel DIDN'T want to destroy everything? Could it be because Chara wanted to reach the end, and have Frisk use it, so that Asriel may not remember what happened? So that killing everything wouldn't be so suspicious to Flowriel? Also, this very well could have been FRISK fighting to stop it. Because, well, we ARE fighting to stop it, and actions of Frisk are indistinguaihable from actions of Chara. That's kind of why Flowey assumed Chara could perform the True Reset in the first place...?" Oh. I'm gonna delete my response to what you said above then since we agree on that now. I think the most likely situation is that they were just trying to help Frisk. You can still check like normal in their fight and Chara never makes any attempt to change Frisk's opinion on not resetting. Not to mention they still narrate for you. If that's the case Chara would automatically fall under that umbrella because they are the narrator and help Frisk by explaining stuff. You can check and Chara will still give you a read on the situation. "Yeah, this is confirmation this isn't to Frisk." Yep, it's all directed towards Chara. "Change your mind. This implies that by default, Chara wanted to reset. Asriel wanted to CHANGE that, so that Chara doesn't reset." No it doesn't, because Flowey is just making an assumption. Not only that but Chara doesn't even have the ability to reset. "Flowey assumes Chara HAS already reset, and hundreds of times, even! This is further evidence that resetting was their intention." It's not because this is still Flowey's baseless assumption. That's what Flowey THINKS, but that doesn't make what he thinks true. How does it even count as evidence when his response is flawed from the start? Chara can't even reset in the first place. "Well, that’s all. See you later… Chara." "Bye Flowey. So, yeah. It's evident that Chara DID want to reset. They didn't respond with their choice, because they KNOW they're not the one who gets to choose. Frisk gets to choose." It Isn't because Flowey's whole speech is nothing more than an assumption. He assumed Chara did reset, when we know for a fact that they can't reset. He then assumes Chara will reset again and will prefer that, again these are Flowey's words. You may ask "Why would Flowey have such a negative opinion of Chara?" Well, because he realized Chara wasn't the greatest person. He knew they were not a very good person when alive and assumed they were still not a very good person in death. Why Chara didn't respond is unknown but it's likely that either A. Chara chooses not to because in the end it's Frisk choice. That wouldn't make them evil in pacifist. B. Flowey can't even hear them. We know Asriel could but Flowey seems to just say his thing and then leave right away. ' '